Comments on: “… if you’re going to talk about how far we’ve come when it comes to porn, if you’re going to posit Paul “Max Hardcore” Little as the latest victim of the Bush administration, if you’re going to lament one more strike against your First Amendment rights, you should bear witness as to what a porn star drenched in vomit looks like.”

By: Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » I apologize for linking to Glenn Greenwald

Mon, 25 May 2009 13:00:48 +0000

[...] column the other day, I was unaware of his history as an advocate for torturers. Greenwald has vigorously championed torturers’ rights, has explicitly privileged their version of events over that of their [...]

By: Feminist Law Professors » Blog Archive » “Shocks fit well into the brothel business model because they cause agonizing pain and terrify the girls without damaging their looks or undermining their market value.”

Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:57:52 +0000

[...] I save for another day my rant about how, once a camera enters the room to record the rapes so they can be further monetarily exploited as pornography, the Supposedly Liberal Doods and their fans agressively promote the view that this is a protected First Amendment excercise, because coerced prostituted women are obviously showing “agency” and to suggest otherwise is misogynist. [...]

By: … If you’re going to talk about how far we’ve come … « Anti-Porn Feminists

Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:13:24 +0000

[...] … If you’re going to talk about how far we’ve come … Posted October 25, 2008 Filed under: quote of the day | “â€¦ if you’re going to talk about how far we’ve come when it comes to porn, if you’re g… [...]

By: Feminist Law Professors » Blog Archive » Robert Jensen, “Porn’s Dirty, Dangerous Secret”

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:27:26 +0000

[...] course they don’t see the degradation. They hold the Glenn Greenwald view that it is all “fiction.” And that the women “wanted it.” They deny the humanity of the women being subjected to [...]

By: thebewilderness

thebewilderness — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:14:40 +0000

An another thing, Glenn.
If you expect to be taken seriously, you will not tell women what they think so you can then tell them that they are wrong to think it. That behavior is a major red flag to every woman over the age of six.

By: thebewilderness

thebewilderness — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:10:35 +0000

Glenn,
Are you trying to argue that tortured people do not lie, or only women who are tortured do not lie? That is silly on it’s face. That is why they are tortured. To make them lie.
All tortured people are fragile creatures. That is what torture does. Damages you both physically and mentally.
I do not think you have not thought this through.

By: Ann Bartow

Ann Bartow — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:33:29 +0000

Thanks, Eric and Kathy. I appreciate your input tremendously.

By: Kathy Stanchi

Kathy Stanchi — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:25:18 +0000

Thank you Eric. (and Ann)

Mr. Greenwald, Ann and I, and other feminists, know that there is a woman’s agency argument out there in support of porn. You don’t have to educate us. But, come on now, calling a woman who objects to the filming of another woman being vomited on for men’s sexual pleasure misogynist because she questions the meaningfulness of the consent? Give me a break.

You bring up law school — so let me tell you something about it. There’s a whole world of legal thought about the subtlety of voluntariness and consent that has apparently escaped you. As just one example, consider the jurisprudence on voluntary confessions by criminal suspects. Somehow, when liberals question the voluntariness of behavior by criminal suspects (most of whom are economically and socially trod upon, see where I’m going with this?), there is no concern about agency. I wonder why?

Doesn’t it perturb you at all that it frequently seems to be women in these movies who “consent” to these degrading acts? Why do you think that is? Are we just a more freewheeling gender? Willing to do anything for money? What is it? Where are all the men being vomited on at the movies? If it’s all so beautiful, why don’t you hear more about guys doing it? I don’t think you adequately address this core (and vexing) question.

So, quit throwing words like “misogyny” around. You’re entitled to your opinion, even if it is simplistic. But, when you try to cloak yourself in feminism to defend women’s rights to be puked on so men can jerk off, that’s when you lose me (and lots of other people).

By: Eric

Eric — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:32:03 +0000

Apart from the source of the quote, there’s a further reason to be skeptical about the assertion that this particular woman was really a willing and happy participant. It has nothing to do with assuming women to be weak or confused, but everything to do with the inherently unequal power relation between a porn actress and a porn producer. This is generally true, of course, for any employee and any employer. But the specific features of the porn industry make the employees even more vulnerable than those in other industries. It isn’t necessary to assume someone is weak or confused to believe that they might say something they don’t really believe for fear of finding themselves out of work.

So, while I’m quite willing to believe that some people, male or female, may willingly and happily participate in films of this nature, and not object to acting out violent and repulsive scenes (though the fact that there are evidently people actually turned on by vomit is as horrible a confirmation I could imagine of my adage that “the world is full of freaks”), I am much less willing to assume that is so in this particular instance, especially when the only evidence is based on the say-so of the producer’s lawyer.

By: Ann Bartow

Ann Bartow — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:20:37 +0000

Readers here know that one women who goes by the name “Neesa” has asserted at this blog and in many other Internet venues that she was raped and abused by Hardcore, see comments here: http://feministlawprofs.law.sc.edu/?p=3635

See also comments by Neesa appended to articles published online by the Tampa Tribune and St. Petersburg Times. Believe them or not as you choose.