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	<title>Comments on: Women selling sex are arrested and jailed, but the buyers go free?</title>
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	<description>Nearly all of us root for fairness, not for our own sex. - Nicholas Kristof</description>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5585</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5585</guid>
		<description>We agree that selling sex should be decriminalized.  We probably agree on little else, except possibly that people who want to exit prostitution should be given the help they need to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We agree that selling sex should be decriminalized.  We probably agree on little else, except possibly that people who want to exit prostitution should be given the help they need to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen P</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5583</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5583</guid>
		<description>Over here there is much evidence of high and increasing addiction to heroin and crack among street sex workers. Off-street, use of drugs is much lower and such use as there is tends to be of less addictive, less dangerous drugs.

This increasing percentage among street sex workers (now showing approaching 90 percent in some inner cities) may well be accounted for in whole of in part by an emigration of non-addicted street workers to the net.

The three cities study - the first link I sent - shows differing levels of client violence to sex workers indoors and outdoors. Bare in mind, firstly, that &#039;client&#039; is defined here as someone who presents as a client. not necessarily someone who actually does, or intends to do, business.

On top of client violence, street sex workers are also frequently subjected to violence from strangers, their families, pimps and the state. In the UK, street sex workers&#039; children are frequently removed by social services departments, for example.

The UK expert on violence to sex workers is Hilary Kinnell. Here&#039;s a piece she wrote a year back for the Guardian following the conviction of Ipswich serial killer Steve Wright:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/22/hilarykinnellonsexworkers

Sorry, Ann, for my somewhat abrupt initial response to your post, but those of us trying to fight for sex workers&#039; rights constantly battle with figures taken out of context.

Coming back to your post, certainly the concensus among US sexworkers on the international list I belong to is that the criminal justice system in the states enforces laws more on the sex workers than on their clients.

Firstly this is inequitable, but there again it may be pragmatic. I don&#039;t know the US figure, but in the UK approximately a tenth of the adult male popilation is believed to have availed themselves of the services of a prostitute at one time or another.

Those suffering form the delusion that they can &quot;eradicate&quot; prostitution, if trying to deal with clients, can find themselves like those sitting in their gardens on a hot day trying to keep the wasps off the jam by setting out to eliminate the world&#039;s wasp population.

In the end, the most equitable thing would be to prosecute neither the sex worker nor the client, in which case you could work to reduce violence, reduce STI risks, gain tax income, redeploy the opportunity cost in terms of the criminal justice system, and minimise trafficking by creating a more transparent society.

Fairly good discussion of this here:
http://prostitution.procon.org/viewtopic.asp

And as lawyers, I&#039;m sure you&#039;ll find this US site interesting on the ups and downs of policing street prostitution in the USA over to the Center for Problem Oriented Policing (interestingly, they only dismiss decriminalisation on the grounds of political feasibility):
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution/1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over here there is much evidence of high and increasing addiction to heroin and crack among street sex workers. Off-street, use of drugs is much lower and such use as there is tends to be of less addictive, less dangerous drugs.</p>
<p>This increasing percentage among street sex workers (now showing approaching 90 percent in some inner cities) may well be accounted for in whole of in part by an emigration of non-addicted street workers to the net.</p>
<p>The three cities study &#8211; the first link I sent &#8211; shows differing levels of client violence to sex workers indoors and outdoors. Bare in mind, firstly, that &#8216;client&#8217; is defined here as someone who presents as a client. not necessarily someone who actually does, or intends to do, business.</p>
<p>On top of client violence, street sex workers are also frequently subjected to violence from strangers, their families, pimps and the state. In the UK, street sex workers&#8217; children are frequently removed by social services departments, for example.</p>
<p>The UK expert on violence to sex workers is Hilary Kinnell. Here&#8217;s a piece she wrote a year back for the Guardian following the conviction of Ipswich serial killer Steve Wright:<br />
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/22/hilarykinnellonsexworkers" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/feb/22/hilarykinnellonsexworkers</a></p>
<p>Sorry, Ann, for my somewhat abrupt initial response to your post, but those of us trying to fight for sex workers&#8217; rights constantly battle with figures taken out of context.</p>
<p>Coming back to your post, certainly the concensus among US sexworkers on the international list I belong to is that the criminal justice system in the states enforces laws more on the sex workers than on their clients.</p>
<p>Firstly this is inequitable, but there again it may be pragmatic. I don&#8217;t know the US figure, but in the UK approximately a tenth of the adult male popilation is believed to have availed themselves of the services of a prostitute at one time or another.</p>
<p>Those suffering form the delusion that they can &#8220;eradicate&#8221; prostitution, if trying to deal with clients, can find themselves like those sitting in their gardens on a hot day trying to keep the wasps off the jam by setting out to eliminate the world&#8217;s wasp population.</p>
<p>In the end, the most equitable thing would be to prosecute neither the sex worker nor the client, in which case you could work to reduce violence, reduce STI risks, gain tax income, redeploy the opportunity cost in terms of the criminal justice system, and minimise trafficking by creating a more transparent society.</p>
<p>Fairly good discussion of this here:<br />
<a href="http://prostitution.procon.org/viewtopic.asp" rel="nofollow">http://prostitution.procon.org/viewtopic.asp</a></p>
<p>And as lawyers, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll find this US site interesting on the ups and downs of policing street prostitution in the USA over to the Center for Problem Oriented Policing (interestingly, they only dismiss decriminalisation on the grounds of political feasibility):<br />
<a href="http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution/1" rel="nofollow">http://www.popcenter.org/problems/street_prostitution/1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5582</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5582</guid>
		<description>Middle class feminists do support women victimized by prostitution, I assure you. It&#039;s the people, mostly men, in control of the criminal justice systems who create and perpetuate the problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Middle class feminists do support women victimized by prostitution, I assure you. It&#8217;s the people, mostly men, in control of the criminal justice systems who create and perpetuate the problems.</p>
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		<title>By: maggie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5581</link>
		<dc:creator>maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5581</guid>
		<description>Twas ever thus! Long have I railed against the criminalisation of women trying to earn a living while the recipients of the service go free!
 
What is going on here? Why have middle class feminists not supported  the women subjected to this discriminatory and hypocritical practice?

The situation is more complex than seeing women in the sex industry as victims. Obviously they do not like to see themselves this way. But the history of the regulation of prostitution internationally has seen an entrenchment of male domination . While here in OZ the women have also been sent inside, and are arguably safer from assault by clients, they earn less and are more dependant on ( usually male) businessmen who own the brothels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Twas ever thus! Long have I railed against the criminalisation of women trying to earn a living while the recipients of the service go free!</p>
<p>What is going on here? Why have middle class feminists not supported  the women subjected to this discriminatory and hypocritical practice?</p>
<p>The situation is more complex than seeing women in the sex industry as victims. Obviously they do not like to see themselves this way. But the history of the regulation of prostitution internationally has seen an entrenchment of male domination . While here in OZ the women have also been sent inside, and are arguably safer from assault by clients, they earn less and are more dependant on ( usually male) businessmen who own the brothels.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5577</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5577</guid>
		<description>Okay, Clark is the pimp.

&quot;Brothel law&quot; has no consistent meaning in the U.S. and no legal meaning in Pennsylvania as far as I can tell. See: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/10/10-07-03tdc/10-07-03dnews-01.asp
See also http://cornellsun.com/node/29771
and this account at Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/college/halls/brothel.asp

Thanks for the links to the studies, though I do not think they refute the assertion that prostitutes suffer from violence and drug addictions at high rates, even if they work &quot;indoors.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Clark is the pimp.</p>
<p>&#8220;Brothel law&#8221; has no consistent meaning in the U.S. and no legal meaning in Pennsylvania as far as I can tell. See: <a href="http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/10/10-07-03tdc/10-07-03dnews-01.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2003/10/10-07-03tdc/10-07-03dnews-01.asp</a><br />
See also <a href="http://cornellsun.com/node/29771" rel="nofollow">http://cornellsun.com/node/29771</a><br />
and this account at Snopes: <a href="http://www.snopes.com/college/halls/brothel.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/college/halls/brothel.asp</a></p>
<p>Thanks for the links to the studies, though I do not think they refute the assertion that prostitutes suffer from violence and drug addictions at high rates, even if they work &#8220;indoors.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen P</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5575</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5575</guid>
		<description>Stephen Clark (sorry, no &#039;e&#039;) appears in the first para of the story. 

Brothel law is the law relating to brothels.

For comparative studies of indoor and street sex work (in the UK), try here:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7285/524

http://www.rcog.org.uk/news/bjog-release-different-health-needs-female-sex-workers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen Clark (sorry, no &#8216;e&#8217;) appears in the first para of the story. </p>
<p>Brothel law is the law relating to brothels.</p>
<p>For comparative studies of indoor and street sex work (in the UK), try here:<br />
<a href="http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7285/524" rel="nofollow">http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/322/7285/524</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.rcog.org.uk/news/bjog-release-different-health-needs-female-sex-workers" rel="nofollow">http://www.rcog.org.uk/news/bjog-release-different-health-needs-female-sex-workers</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5563</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 01:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5563</guid>
		<description>If you read the study you will see that the definition of street prostitution was very broad, and the data analyzed by the study authors was &quot;newly available incident level data from the Chicago Police Department which includes details of every prostitution-related arrest in the city over the period August 19, 2005 to May 1, 2007.&quot; Street prostitution doesn&#039;t mean the sex acts took place in the street.

Additionally, there are two studies linked above, one in which prostitution in Chicago was studied, the other a study of prostitution in NYC. To see that one click on the words &quot;High rate of drug abuse... &quot; or go here: http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/murphyvenkarticle.pdf
As you can see from the abstract, indoor prostitution was the subject of that study. 

I have no idea what the &quot;Stephen Clarke&quot; case is that you reference. The john in the post referenced above is Mark A. Sargent, the former dean of Villanova Law School. Nor do I have any idea what you mean when you say &quot;brothel law.&quot;

You make references to &quot;studies&quot; completely without links or any identifying information.  There is therefore no reason to accord any weight to your words on this subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you read the study you will see that the definition of street prostitution was very broad, and the data analyzed by the study authors was &#8220;newly available incident level data from the Chicago Police Department which includes details of every prostitution-related arrest in the city over the period August 19, 2005 to May 1, 2007.&#8221; Street prostitution doesn&#8217;t mean the sex acts took place in the street.</p>
<p>Additionally, there are two studies linked above, one in which prostitution in Chicago was studied, the other a study of prostitution in NYC. To see that one click on the words &#8220;High rate of drug abuse&#8230; &#8221; or go here: <a href="http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/murphyvenkarticle.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/murphyvenkarticle.pdf</a><br />
As you can see from the abstract, indoor prostitution was the subject of that study. </p>
<p>I have no idea what the &#8220;Stephen Clarke&#8221; case is that you reference. The john in the post referenced above is Mark A. Sargent, the former dean of Villanova Law School. Nor do I have any idea what you mean when you say &#8220;brothel law.&#8221;</p>
<p>You make references to &#8220;studies&#8221; completely without links or any identifying information.  There is therefore no reason to accord any weight to your words on this subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen P</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5562</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 00:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5562</guid>
		<description>The study referred to is a study of STREET sex workers in Chicago, not the INDOOR industry in Pennsylvania, which was the locale of the Stephen Clarke case. I&#039;m in the UK, and I know not the differences between Chicago and Chester (though I suspect they&#039;re profound). I do know enough, however, to be aware that only a small minority (variously estimated at between 8 percent and 20 percent) of prostitutes are street sex workers in developed countries.

High levels of drug addiction and of violence are primarily associated with street sex work. Studies here indicate that much of the violence comes from persons other than clients, such as strangers, family members, pimps, and the state. Strangers frequently present as clients.

Studies also indicate that, whilst a much lower incidence of violence takes place in brothels, that which does occur is generally much less reported, due to brothel law. 

Who dials the cops?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The study referred to is a study of STREET sex workers in Chicago, not the INDOOR industry in Pennsylvania, which was the locale of the Stephen Clarke case. I&#8217;m in the UK, and I know not the differences between Chicago and Chester (though I suspect they&#8217;re profound). I do know enough, however, to be aware that only a small minority (variously estimated at between 8 percent and 20 percent) of prostitutes are street sex workers in developed countries.</p>
<p>High levels of drug addiction and of violence are primarily associated with street sex work. Studies here indicate that much of the violence comes from persons other than clients, such as strangers, family members, pimps, and the state. Strangers frequently present as clients.</p>
<p>Studies also indicate that, whilst a much lower incidence of violence takes place in brothels, that which does occur is generally much less reported, due to brothel law. </p>
<p>Who dials the cops?</p>
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		<title>By: Bloggerheads &#187; How to Stop Indoor Prostitution? Ask a Law School Dean</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5435</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloggerheads &#187; How to Stop Indoor Prostitution? Ask a Law School Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:31:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5435</guid>
		<description>[...] as a customer of a prostitution ring in Devon, Pennsylvana. (For coverage of that story, see here, here and here.) Apparently Mr. Sargent was&quot;patronizing&quot;a prostitute when the house was raided by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] as a customer of a prostitution ring in Devon, Pennsylvana. (For coverage of that story, see here, here and here.) Apparently Mr. Sargent was&#8221;patronizing&#8221;a prostitute when the house was raided by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lori Robinett</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/07/women-selling-sex-are-arrested-but-the-buyers-go-free/comment-page-1/#comment-5434</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori Robinett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=11863#comment-5434</guid>
		<description>Thanks for bringing this to light. It does seem quite illogical to go after the woman and not the men who paid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for bringing this to light. It does seem quite illogical to go after the woman and not the men who paid.</p>
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