<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#8217;t Understand Science or Math</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/</link>
	<description>Nearly all of us root for fairness, not for our own sex. - Nicholas Kristof</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:26:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: Another reason we need a feminist approach to breast cancer &#171; Knitting Clio</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6362</link>
		<dc:creator>Another reason we need a feminist approach to breast cancer &#171; Knitting Clio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6362</guid>
		<description>[...] Feminist Law Professors has another commentary on the recent recommendations regarding breast cancer screenings.Â  I didn&#8217;t have the same reaction to the NYT Op-Ed criticized in this post. I also was aware of an earlier report this year that the CSA  Prostate Test Found to Save Few Lives. [in fact, I had heard this from GPs at a conference in Scotland in Fall 2008). Again, I find the most compelling points in the comments section, from Jay who had ductal cancer in situ (DCIS) and criticizes condescending treatment at her breast cancer treatment center.Â  So, this is another example of why the &#8220;pink ribbon&#8221; industry is not feminist.Â  It&#8217;s especially horrifying to me that so many women have healthy breasts and ovaries removed because they are so afraid of getting cancer. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Breast Cancer â€“ Causes and TreatmentsBreast cancer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Feminist Law Professors has another commentary on the recent recommendations regarding breast cancer screenings.Â  I didn&#8217;t have the same reaction to the NYT Op-Ed criticized in this post. I also was aware of an earlier report this year that the CSA  Prostate Test Found to Save Few Lives. [in fact, I had heard this from GPs at a conference in Scotland in Fall 2008). Again, I find the most compelling points in the comments section, from Jay who had ductal cancer in situ (DCIS) and criticizes condescending treatment at her breast cancer treatment center.Â  So, this is another example of why the &#8220;pink ribbon&#8221; industry is not feminist.Â  It&#8217;s especially horrifying to me that so many women have healthy breasts and ovaries removed because they are so afraid of getting cancer. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Breast Cancer â€“ Causes and TreatmentsBreast cancer [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wednesday Link Love &#171; The Feminist Texican</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6357</link>
		<dc:creator>Wednesday Link Love &#171; The Feminist Texican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 06:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6357</guid>
		<description>[...] Feminist Law Professors: From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#039;t Unde... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Feminist Law Professors: From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#8217;t Unde&#8230; [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Got Your Science Right Here</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6356</link>
		<dc:creator>Got Your Science Right Here</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 04:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6356</guid>
		<description>[...] Got Your Science Right Here      From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don?t Understand Science or Math  The contempt laden Op-Ed is here. In his inaugural address, Barack Obama promised to restore science to its ?rightful place.? This has partly occurred, as evidenced by this month?s release of 13 new human embryonic stem-cell lines. The recent brouhaha over the guidelines put forth by the government task force on breast-cancer screening, however, illustrates how tricky it can be to deliver on this promise. One big reason is that people may not like or even understand what scientists say, especially when what they say is complex, counterintuitive or ambiguous.   So right out of the box author John Allen Paulos rhetorically links the G.W. Bush era right wing ?Christianity? driven opposition to stem cell research with concerns about the new mammogram guidelines. But that noxious opener is completely unfair. Women did not start scheduling mammograms for dubious religious reasons. We did it because SCIENTISTS CONVINCED US IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL ? scientists at places like the Centers For Disease Control. So did organizations like the American Cancer Society, which last time I checked was not ?faith based.? feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Got Your Science Right Here      From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don?t Understand Science or Math  The contempt laden Op-Ed is here. In his inaugural address, Barack Obama promised to restore science to its ?rightful place.? This has partly occurred, as evidenced by this month?s release of 13 new human embryonic stem-cell lines. The recent brouhaha over the guidelines put forth by the government task force on breast-cancer screening, however, illustrates how tricky it can be to deliver on this promise. One big reason is that people may not like or even understand what scientists say, especially when what they say is complex, counterintuitive or ambiguous.   So right out of the box author John Allen Paulos rhetorically links the G.W. Bush era right wing ?Christianity? driven opposition to stem cell research with concerns about the new mammogram guidelines. But that noxious opener is completely unfair. Women did not start scheduling mammograms for dubious religious reasons. We did it because SCIENTISTS CONVINCED US IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL ? scientists at places like the Centers For Disease Control. So did organizations like the American Cancer Society, which last time I checked was not ?faith based.? feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096 [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tim maguire</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6355</link>
		<dc:creator>tim maguire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6355</guid>
		<description>That recommendation was received with some sense of irony in my house as it came out exactly one day after my 39 year old wife was diagnosed with cancer from a routine mammogram. The mastectomy was yesterday. 

Like Jay, we initially thought it was DCIS and went with a lumpectomy to remove it. But unlike in Jay&#039;s case, there was an invasive tumor in there as well and a second surgery was necessary. If she waited until 50, she&#039;d likely be one of those unfortunate statistics we&#039;re apparently better off with than without.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That recommendation was received with some sense of irony in my house as it came out exactly one day after my 39 year old wife was diagnosed with cancer from a routine mammogram. The mastectomy was yesterday. </p>
<p>Like Jay, we initially thought it was DCIS and went with a lumpectomy to remove it. But unlike in Jay&#8217;s case, there was an invasive tumor in there as well and a second surgery was necessary. If she waited until 50, she&#8217;d likely be one of those unfortunate statistics we&#8217;re apparently better off with than without.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6354</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6354</guid>
		<description>Jay, I&#039;m sorry you had a negative experience. But I do not think you have any evidence to support your assertion that &quot;Because most of those [over treated] women were told that they had cancer when they really had a stage zero condition with a small chance (maybe 20%) of turning into an invasive cancer.&quot; The Report says, as I quote above, &quot;Methods for estimating overdiagnosis at a population level are not well established, and thus the proportion of all detected DCIS lesions that constitute overdiagnosis is uncertain.&quot;How many women are over treated is unknown, and hopefully something that will be researched further. As I said, I think it is good to ask questions and demand better answers. That is not what Paulos is doing in his Op-Ed, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I&#8217;m sorry you had a negative experience. But I do not think you have any evidence to support your assertion that &#8220;Because most of those [over treated] women were told that they had cancer when they really had a stage zero condition with a small chance (maybe 20%) of turning into an invasive cancer.&#8221; The Report says, as I quote above, &#8220;Methods for estimating overdiagnosis at a population level are not well established, and thus the proportion of all detected DCIS lesions that constitute overdiagnosis is uncertain.&#8221;How many women are over treated is unknown, and hopefully something that will be researched further. As I said, I think it is good to ask questions and demand better answers. That is not what Paulos is doing in his Op-Ed, however.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6353</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6353</guid>
		<description>Ann, your comment above raises a very important issue, and everyone should distinguish (helpful) screening for women with identified risks (family history of breast cancer, use of HRT, or as you point out, a host of other reasons) and population-based screening, under which asymptomatic women who have no reason to have breast cancer are pushed (and yes, they are pushed) into screening. 

But Paulos does have a point. We are conditioned to be scared of breast cancer. There are other deadly cancers for which we aren&#039;t routinely screened. And while we all know women who have suffered terribly from breast cancer, we don&#039;t know those women who were overtreated. Why? Because most of those women were told that they had cancer when they really had a stage zero condition with a small chance (maybe 20%) of turning into an invasive cancer. 

You asked me in an earlier comment if I&#039;m a physician. I&#039;m not. I&#039;m a DCIS victim. Note that I didn&#039;t say &quot;breast cancer survivor.&quot; If you want to see women treated condescendingly, stop by a breast center. The only way that I found out that my condition had a very small chance of turning into invasive cancer was by doing my own research. Everyone at the breast center treated me like an uneducated housewife who was terrified of her awful cancer. Yes, I had the surgery, and in a &quot;made for TV&quot; moment, I learned about the new guidelines the morning after my follow up appointment. First, I smiled for all of those women who won&#039;t be subjected to overtreatment for a condition that is unlikely to harm them. Then I cried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann, your comment above raises a very important issue, and everyone should distinguish (helpful) screening for women with identified risks (family history of breast cancer, use of HRT, or as you point out, a host of other reasons) and population-based screening, under which asymptomatic women who have no reason to have breast cancer are pushed (and yes, they are pushed) into screening. </p>
<p>But Paulos does have a point. We are conditioned to be scared of breast cancer. There are other deadly cancers for which we aren&#8217;t routinely screened. And while we all know women who have suffered terribly from breast cancer, we don&#8217;t know those women who were overtreated. Why? Because most of those women were told that they had cancer when they really had a stage zero condition with a small chance (maybe 20%) of turning into an invasive cancer. </p>
<p>You asked me in an earlier comment if I&#8217;m a physician. I&#8217;m not. I&#8217;m a DCIS victim. Note that I didn&#8217;t say &#8220;breast cancer survivor.&#8221; If you want to see women treated condescendingly, stop by a breast center. The only way that I found out that my condition had a very small chance of turning into invasive cancer was by doing my own research. Everyone at the breast center treated me like an uneducated housewife who was terrified of her awful cancer. Yes, I had the surgery, and in a &#8220;made for TV&#8221; moment, I learned about the new guidelines the morning after my follow up appointment. First, I smiled for all of those women who won&#8217;t be subjected to overtreatment for a condition that is unlikely to harm them. Then I cried.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Breast Cancer Screening Guidelines go from 40 to 50 - Global Affairs Forum, Politics, Law, Science, Health</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6352</link>
		<dc:creator>Breast Cancer Screening Guidelines go from 40 to 50 - Global Affairs Forum, Politics, Law, Science, Health</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6352</guid>
		<description>[...] is pretty damning...   From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#8217;t ...     __________________ Whenever Cicero spoke, the people reacted and said, &quot;He spoke so well.&quot; But [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is pretty damning&#8230;   From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#8217;t &#8230;     __________________ Whenever Cicero spoke, the people reacted and said, &quot;He spoke so well.&quot; But [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ann Bartow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6351</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Bartow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6351</guid>
		<description>JamesB - I don&#039;t blame scientists. The actual Report seems thoughtful and reasonable to me. It asks important questions and it doesn&#039;t purport to be definitive. What troubles me is that that it may be used by insurance companies to limit or deny coverage for mammograms and other types of breast cancer screening, which would have a horrible impact on women who are at very high risk (because they took HRT, or because of their genetics, or a host of other reasons). The test for whether or not a woman had the so called &quot;breast cancer gene&quot; costs thousands of dollars and is not currently covered by many insurance plans. Now women at high risk for breast cancer could lose coverage for yearly screening as well, which their lives might depend upon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JamesB &#8211; I don&#8217;t blame scientists. The actual Report seems thoughtful and reasonable to me. It asks important questions and it doesn&#8217;t purport to be definitive. What troubles me is that that it may be used by insurance companies to limit or deny coverage for mammograms and other types of breast cancer screening, which would have a horrible impact on women who are at very high risk (because they took HRT, or because of their genetics, or a host of other reasons). The test for whether or not a woman had the so called &#8220;breast cancer gene&#8221; costs thousands of dollars and is not currently covered by many insurance plans. Now women at high risk for breast cancer could lose coverage for yearly screening as well, which their lives might depend upon.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JamesB</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6350</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6350</guid>
		<description>Hello,

You can rail against the journalists for their attempt to explain science, but in the end the science is still very messy.

Here are some reasonable facts which I think aren&#039;t too controversial now:

1) X-Rays cause cancer in some small percent of cases.
2) Horse based Estrogen causes breast cancer.  Now that it is isn&#039;t used much any more, the cancer rate should be falling - without any help from screening.
3) Mammograms have found a lot of cancers which fell somewhere in between benign and malignant.  They didn&#039;t know what to do with these cancers, and many were treated as regular cancer.  This caused lots of pain for woman, and at the same time an increased &quot;survival rate&quot;.  Since a cancer which was treated is considered a success, but a cancer never found is not.

Add all this up, and you can most any conclusion you like (depending on your disposition).  Granted woman tend to want &quot;control&quot; which may be comforting, even if it leads to bad results.

All this leads to my main point.  Science tends to have a &quot;crying wolf&quot; problem.  It comes out with some course of action, which often times is wrong, sometimes tragically wrong.  Scientists then comes out later with an opposite course of action, which people then dismiss because the first course is now wrong - which destroys the credibility of the scientists.

When I was a kid, when we ate dinner, we ate are bread with margarine.  This was because butter had saturated fat which caused heart disease.  This went on for 20 or 30 years.  Then one day, saturated fat no longer caused heart disease, and trans-fats caused heart disease.  The advice to eat margarine was not only ineffective, it actually caused heart disease (tragically wrong)!  Now people won&#039;t believe that trans-fats cause heart disease, because the heart (vascular really) scientists who figured it out were the ones who told us not to eat the butter.

I don&#039;t blame the scientists, its a hit and miss affair.  But from my perspective, its an argument for freedom of choice in the end.  The scientists will send out the data and recommendations, and we will have to choose individually.  The dynamic of having the scientists lead us is too damaging when the story (inevitably) changes.  I think that&#039;s also an argument against socialized medicine, but your views may differ.

James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,</p>
<p>You can rail against the journalists for their attempt to explain science, but in the end the science is still very messy.</p>
<p>Here are some reasonable facts which I think aren&#8217;t too controversial now:</p>
<p>1) X-Rays cause cancer in some small percent of cases.<br />
2) Horse based Estrogen causes breast cancer.  Now that it is isn&#8217;t used much any more, the cancer rate should be falling &#8211; without any help from screening.<br />
3) Mammograms have found a lot of cancers which fell somewhere in between benign and malignant.  They didn&#8217;t know what to do with these cancers, and many were treated as regular cancer.  This caused lots of pain for woman, and at the same time an increased &#8220;survival rate&#8221;.  Since a cancer which was treated is considered a success, but a cancer never found is not.</p>
<p>Add all this up, and you can most any conclusion you like (depending on your disposition).  Granted woman tend to want &#8220;control&#8221; which may be comforting, even if it leads to bad results.</p>
<p>All this leads to my main point.  Science tends to have a &#8220;crying wolf&#8221; problem.  It comes out with some course of action, which often times is wrong, sometimes tragically wrong.  Scientists then comes out later with an opposite course of action, which people then dismiss because the first course is now wrong &#8211; which destroys the credibility of the scientists.</p>
<p>When I was a kid, when we ate dinner, we ate are bread with margarine.  This was because butter had saturated fat which caused heart disease.  This went on for 20 or 30 years.  Then one day, saturated fat no longer caused heart disease, and trans-fats caused heart disease.  The advice to eat margarine was not only ineffective, it actually caused heart disease (tragically wrong)!  Now people won&#8217;t believe that trans-fats cause heart disease, because the heart (vascular really) scientists who figured it out were the ones who told us not to eat the butter.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t blame the scientists, its a hit and miss affair.  But from my perspective, its an argument for freedom of choice in the end.  The scientists will send out the data and recommendations, and we will have to choose individually.  The dynamic of having the scientists lead us is too damaging when the story (inevitably) changes.  I think that&#8217;s also an argument against socialized medicine, but your views may differ.</p>
<p>James</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: 12-15-2009 &#124; Drive Time Happy Hour</title>
		<link>http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/12/from-the-nyt-you-dumb-women-are-opposing-the-new-mammorgram-recommendations-because-you-dont-understand-science-or-math/comment-page-1/#comment-6349</link>
		<dc:creator>12-15-2009 &#124; Drive Time Happy Hour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=14096#comment-6349</guid>
		<description>[...] From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#039;t Unde... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] From the NYT: You Dumb Women are Opposing the New Mammogram Recommendations Because You Don&#8217;t Unde&#8230; [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

